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Customer Reviews (2)

Small but enjoyable dialogues.
This literal and physically small book is a great and approachable introduction to the philosopher. I'm glad it wasn't titled 'Coffees with' because certainly one can finish it over a taller cup. The book is written in a series of dialogues with the philosopher as if someone with modern day queries was able to have the man alive and accounting for his writings. Considering the nature of Plato's writings this dialgue nature of discovery seems quite appropriate. Fun, brisk and not without a sense of humor, you could do worse for an introduction to the greater, expansive lexicon...just don't expect this to keep you company long.

Nice little book
First of all, please disregard all of the hoopla of Pirsig's name being included in this book. Pirsig only wrote a 2 page introduction to the book, and it contains no new insights to his Metaphysics of Quality. It is simply a short introduction to Plato. So if you are a devoted follower to Pirsig, like I am, don't freak out and purchase this book, like I did.

That said, this is a nice little book on the very basics of Plato. Having read a majority of Plato's works, as well as 2 or 3 other introductions on the man, I found this book to be pleasant and somewhat refreshing. Donald R. Moor writes in extremely simple terms, and very clearly breaks Plato down. In fact, it is so simple, that it cleared up a few things that I had missed in reading on Plato previously. He also takes a few of the outstanding differences between Plato's thought and 21st century morality and puts them in perspective. So, the fact that you might find Plato's notion of killing all atheists reprehensible is cleared up a bit, by placing this notion into Plato's mindset on the world.

Essentially, if you are brand new to Plato, this will serve as a good introduction. Although it lacks the beauty of Plato's writing, it does give a very basic and simple framework from which to understand him. And for those who are familiar with Plato, it does serve to clear up some outstanding, if not subconscious, issues with him. ... Read more

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Customer Reviews (2)

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found G. M. A. Grubb's translationto be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Incredible
This is the translation everyone should read. It's extremely easy to read and it turns theotherwise difficult dialogue in to a type of readable story line that keeps you interested in the mind blowing issues being discussed only a couple thousand years ago. This version definitely brings Plato's Republic back to the present day.
As for the book it self, it's just unbelievable. In the fact that it was written over a thousand years ago.And also because so much has changed since then, but the issues are all things we still contemplate today. This book will change the way you think if you let it. It has been thousands ofyears and still few works of present day writers can rival it. Just incredible. ... Read more

Product Description
Plato's Allegory of the Cave is one of the most famous pieces of philosophical literature. This edition was translated by Benjamin Jowett and has been completely revised and updated. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (3)

Nice short story
Plato expounds on a thought peeling it off in very thin layers.Makes you pause and rethink your approach to mundane daily reality.

Plato Follower
Nice to see The Allegory of the Cave available without purchasing the compete works in Plato's Republic.

Just what I needed
I only needed to read the Allegory of the Cave, Book VII of The Republic, for my philosophy class and this was just what I was looking for. I didn't have to buy the whole "Republic" and was happy to find a translation that was easily readable. Thanks again! ... Read more

Product Description
Based on the latest and most authoritative edition of the Republic available, this careful translation provides the groundwork by which students can come to their own understanding of this seminal work of Western thought, as is appropriate for courses in core curriculum which emphasize students dealing directly with Great Books.Other useful features include a chapter-by-chapter outline of principal speakers and summary of the content, Stephanus numbers, boldface type to indicate the entrance of a new speaker into the discussion, footnotes, and glossary of key terms with cross references for the text ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

Excellent book condition
The book was in excellent condition as described. Received the item within the time frame promised. Would buy again from this seller.

Plato Republic (Joe Sachs)
This version (Joe Sachs) is quite informative and easy to follow in means of understanding in more simpler terms. I would highly recommend this towards any interested reader from any statue in regards to the focus of Plato.

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Joe Sachs' translation of Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found Sachs' translation to be one of the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Joe Sachs' translation of Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found Sachs' translation to be one of the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Wonderful Translation
My professor switched from Allan Bloom to Joe Sachs. The format makes the text accessible and the translation is as fluid as any I've read. ... Read more

Product Description
Widely adopted for classroom use, this book offers translations of four major works of ancient Greek literature which treat the life and thought of Socrates, focusing particularly on his trial and defense (the platonic dialogues Euthyphro, Apology of Socrates, and Crito) and on the charges against Socrates (Aristophanes' comedy Clouds). This is the only collection of the three Platonic dialogues that also includes Clouds, a work that is fundamental for understanding the thought of Socrates in relation to the Athenian political community and to Greek poetry.

Thomas G. West's introduction provides an overview of the principal themes and arguments of the four works. There are extensive explanatory notes to the translations. For this new edition, Thomas West has revised the introduction and updated the annotated bibliography, which includes the best of the secondary literature on Socrates and on the texts included in this book.

In their translations, the Wests capture successfully the simplicity and vigor of straightforward Greek diction. They strive for as high a degree of accuracy as possible, subordinating concerns for elegance and smoothness to the goal of producing the most faithful and most reliable English versions of these texts. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

I never got my book!
This person is fake and never sent my book!! Dont buy from this person. Amazon doesnt even have an accurate email on file so there is no way to contact them.

a question
I am very interested in reading Plato in a way that is as close to the original. Unfortunately I don't read ancient gtreek.

So I have a question:

here is the translation provided in this book of a famous passage:

"For there is no human being who will preserve his life if he genuinely opposes either you or any other multitude and prevents many unjust and unlawful things from happening in the city"

here is the translation from Benjamin Jowett
"no man who goes to war with you or any other multitude, honestly striving against the many lawless and unrighteous deeds which are done in a state, will save his life"

now I don't care about whether one is more readable than the other, etc

what I care are answer to the following questions that I would be most grateful to get:
1) is the original speaking of "city" or "state"?
2) which verbal expression is closest to what was originally written: "oppose" or "going to war by honestly striving" ?
3)which expressions is closer to the original: is it "unjust and unlawful things" or "lawless and unrighteous"? Is unrighteous right? wasn't it writtent unjust?

You see i am caring about the translated sentence being as close as possible to the original economy (order of words, structure of the sentence, use of one verb when one was used, etc).

Can someone help me assess whether this translation fit with my goal?

Good Translation, Great Dialogues
Having compared this translation with 4 or 5 other translations and with the Greek, I was most pleased with the Plato and less pleased with the Aristophanes.

The Plato texts are accurate and readable, and the prose is even and flowing. They portray the final conversations with Socrates before his execution. The texts are rich with topics for conversation and hold many curiosities when compared with the other Socratic dialogues.

The Aristophanes was accurate, but at times I felt it was censored compared to several of the other translations; not censored in content, but in word choice. This translation uses the less harsh terms for what some of the other translations use. You may find this to be tasteful or dampening to the humor, its a matter of preference, but it is something to be aware of.

In all a great translation of great dialogues and hilarious criticism.

Disastrous, nauseating, incompetent translations. How does work this bad get published?
Before marking 'not useful' please look up the word 'useful' in the dictionary, people!

Never in my life have I been so outraged by what I have read as by the drivel spouted by Dr. West in this book (in his Translator's Note), and by the use of `unponderingly' and "the Thinkery" (among other things) in his translation of The Clouds. I also read his translation of Plato's Apology of Socrates, and found it grossly inferior to Jowett.

Four Texts on Socrates is not a book to be tossed aside lightly: it should be hurled with great force. (Apologies to Dorothy Parker.)

Not only are the translations themselves inexcusably inept, almost everything that he writes in his Translator's Note is wrong.

"The Clouds" is a play, not a scientific or mathematical treatise. As such, it has characters and dialogue. A 'modern' translation of a play must be something that could be presented on a stage and make sense to a 'modern' audience. If a character is supposed to be bizarre or out of the ordinary, one does not make him spout drivel such as 'unponderingly'; one gives him a 'shtick', which is a theatrical term. It's more or less a running gag associated with a particular character. You create, through clever ways of speaking or odd ways of stringing his words together, a characterization. He could be made to speak like a parody of William F. Buckley or the Star Wars character Yoda. As it stands, West's text cannot be presented as a play.

It is neither necessary nor useful to coin such nonsense as 'unponderingly'; indeed, it is inexcusable. It conveys neither humor nor cleverness. It comes off simply as stupid. The translator of a play must know something about theatre and drawing characters, which Dr. West obviously does not. To state it bluntly: The translation of plays should be left to people who understand theatre and characterization, and who are creative. Dr. West doesn't have a creative bone in his body.

In regard to his translation of Plato's The Apology of Socrates, the translation by Dr. West is both original and good, but the parts that are good are not original, and the parts that are original are not good. After all, when one has the work of such a brilliant predecessor as Benjamin Jowett to follow, the temptation to do something entirely different is strong. But it must be resisted. If Dr. West had merely lightly revised Jowett's great work, he would have made a contribution to learning. Alas, he did neither.

The version by Jowett is clearly superior. Here is a short excerpt:

"And I must beg of you to grant me a favor: If I defend myself in my accustomed manner, and you hear me using the words which I have been in the habit of using in the agora, at the tables of the money-changers, or anywhere else, I would ask you not to be surprised, and not to interrupt me on this account. For I am more than seventy years of age, and appearing now for the first time in a court of law, I am quite a stranger to the language of the place; and therefore I would have you regard me as if I were really a stranger, whom you would accuse if he spoke in his native tongue, and after the fashion of his country: Am I making an unfair request of you? Never mind the manner, which may or may not be good; but think only of the truth of my words, and give heed to that: let the speaker speak truly and the judge decide justly."

Compare West's inept version:

"...I do very much beg and beseech this of you: if you hear me speaking in my defense with the same speeches I am accustomed to speak both in the marketplace at the money-tables, where many of you have heard me, and elsewhere, do not wonder or make a disturbance because of this. For this is how it is: now is the first time I have come before a law court, at the age of seventy; hence I am simply foreign to the manner of speech here. So just as, if I really did happen to be a foreigner, you would surely sympathize with me if I spoke in the dialect and way in which I was raised, so also I do beg of you now (and it is just, at least, as it seems to me): leave aside the manner of my speech--for perhaps it may be worse, but perhaps better--and instead consider this very thing and apply your mind to this: whether the things I say are just or not. For this is the virtue of a judge, while that of an orator is to speak the truth."

"Speaking...with the same speeches I am accustomed to speak"? How utterly inept and repetitive! Didn't he even proof-read? One doesn't speak with 'speeches', one speaks with words!

West also uses "virtue" in "virtue of a judge" quite inappropriately. Obviously, he is translating some Greek word in a rigid manner to show that the same Greek word was used as in another place. But "virtue of a judge" (or "virtue of an orator") is not idiomatic English. We don't use "virtue" that way in English, ever. West is simply wrong here. The meaning of "virtue" precludes its being used in this manner.

It is obvious that Dr. West never read his version aloud as a test of its appropriateness, which is surprising, because this work is supposed to be a speech. Dr. West's version is clearly not suited to speaking aloud, whereas Jowett's is. In West's translation, Socrates is a clumsy, repetitive, and inept speaker. Needlessly so. If you want to read a good translation, see Jowett's 3rd edition (1892).

If Socrates is to speak English, let it be the King's English, or not at all.

Why does Dr. West believe himself qualified to make translations? Nothing in his work suggests that he is competent in any way to do so. This is not the work of a scholar, but that of a bungling hack. These translations are travesties. How does work this nauseatingly bad get published?

NOT RECOMMENDED

A Great Help for Teachers
This is an outstanding translation of these Greek texts.These are texts that many of us regularly teach in introductory classes, and it is a great help to have such a reliable translation: the translation is clear and accessible, but maintains an unusually strict adherence to the form of the original Greek.This makes it useful for advanced study as well.The running footnotes to the text are especially helpful for giving students the relevant points of historical and legal context for understanding Socrates's position, but they are sparse enough that they do not intrude in the interpretation of the text.This is the only translation of these texts that I will use in my courses. ... Read more

Product Description
Plato's dialogs about the Atlantis. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (12)

Timaeus and Critias
Excellent book. Since I've been reading many books about Atlantis and Lemuria and attending the Ancient Mysteries Conferences at Association of Research and Enlightenment (Edgar Cayce), I was interested in reading Plato's version of Atlantis which seems to be from what much of the insights are gleaned, as well as from Edgar Cayce's psychic readings. Again, an excellent source for those interested in Ancient times.

Atlantis, Ancient Athens, and a Single God-creator
Atlantis. That is what most people are familiar with, from this ancient tale.

If one reads carefully, it is easy to tell that this is a fictious work by plato, perhaps with real historic connections. We call such a piece today a historic-fiction, so that would make Timaeus and Critias from Penguin Classics, ancient-fiction.

But Atlantis is not the real focus of the work. The real focus is the ancient civilization of Athens. The story provides respectful details of Atlantis because, according to the story, Atlania attacks Athens in an all out invasion. Athens, however, prevails.

There are some who would argue that Plato is not refering to the real atlatic ocean because of an island in the south of Greece that seams to fit the details. The problem is that Plato makes a very distinct description: Atlania had a dominating power over much of the world, including a reference to a land far across the ocean, including all of North Africa. That would make Atlantis a very powerful nation indeed.

If there was rivalry between Athens and Atlantis, as described in Plato, then they could not both have existed so close as being on the same continent and have Atlantis gain such strength.

So, either Atlantis is a fiction in totality (a very real possibility that can be seen in the story's set up) or is a myth that is based on a great deal of truth.

How many gods did Greece believe in? I don't know, but even the ancient greeks believed that there was ONE God who made the whole of the universe. Then God made Kronos, who then made the lessor Gods such as Athena and Atlas (the father of Zeus). Plato details all this in the first part of the book, referred to as Timaeus.

I recommend this to anyone who is interested in the Atlantis impact on our modern day world.

Great Work, Insightful Commentary
I enjoyed this translation as well as the translator's commentary, found in an introduction to Timaeus and an appendix on Atlantis.I thought these sections were quite valuable and added greatly to the utility of this work in translation.

Timaeus picks up in many ways where Republic left off (not quite right, but close) with Socrates recapping the basic ideas of an ideal society.The question is then posed:Would such an ideal society work?How would it work?What would it be like?A short interlude relating to a myth of Atlantis is presented and then the dialog moves on.

The substance of Timaeus then follows which is an attempt to dissect the universe, the soul, and the human body.Plato's theories here are clearly related to Pythagorean thought, however I found them interesting on a number of grounds:

1)His solution to matter is to create large geometric patterns out of atomic particles of air, fire, water, and earth.In this way, he seems to offer a precursor to modern atomic theory.

2)There are elements of his ideas of the creation of the human body which seem to be interesting when compared to various traditional Indo-European healing charms, from the Vedas through Middle High German charms.There is a definite order radiating out, and it may be that Plato's work here may actually advance our understanding of Indo-European traditional concepts of the body.

3)His idea of the role of astrology is far more refined and sophisticated than most advocacy of the topic either in modern times or the ancient world (he suggests that the purpose of human sight is actually to study astrology, that we may better understand ourselves, but this occurs within a fairly sophisticated framework).

All in all, Timaeus is an extremely important document to read to understand the history of ideas in Europe.

The second dialog expands on the Atlantis story.While Critias is but a fragment so we don't really know how the story is supposed to go, the idea is clear-- the dialog will show a working Republic-stye society in war against an outside force (the Atlanteans) who because they are more sophisticated socially will win but that there will be catastrophes which destroy Atlantis and nearly destroy the protagonists:a primitive and mythical Athens.

The introduction provides a great deal of insight into restraints of empirical inquiry in Plato's day and helps explain many of the discrepancies between modern science and Plato's ideas in Timaeus.It offers the right set of questions and insight to help the reader frame the work more clearly.Similarly the appendix on Atlantis provides information relating to possible and hypothetical source material that Plato could have used, as well as information on the history of the great Atlantis debates.Both these sections are also well worth reading.

This is a great rendition of an important set of classics, with added insight supplied by the translator.I heartily recommend it to anyone.

The first attempt to systematically explain the universe
Plato's Timaeus is a dialogue (more like a speech actually, since Timaeus talks uninterrupted for the last 100 pages or so) which is his explanation of the nature and purpose of the universe.He decides that a supreme being (termed God, but not the same as the Christian or Judaistic God, as he is neither omniscient nor immanent.He is there but he is silent.) created the universe.It was not creation ex nihilo, but rather he used some already existing material, a plasticy substance upon which the ideal Forms can be imprinted.So, this God thought of the Forms, then created the physical universe by imprinting said Forms upon the "recepticle of being."Thus the physical universe is imperfect because the recepticle can not perfectly imitate the Forms.

Plato also discusses the makeup of the universe, and unfortunately he is often so incorrect as to not even be worth reading, other than as historical background to other developments.For example, he goes on for a long while about how all mater is made of triangles.Or later he discusses the interchangability of fire, water, earth, and air.

Though many parts of the Timaeus are not especially helpful, there are many parts which are greatly important to understanding ancient thought, both of Plato's time and that of those who were greatly influenced by him, especially Augustine.

The Critas is an unfinished dialogue, the sequel to the Timaeus, in which Plato does not get past a preliminary discussion of an ancient civilization which was supossed to be analyzed in this dialogue.The reason that this dialogue is read (besides being a work of Plato) is that this ancient civilization is Atlantis.It is in this book that we have the first mention of that mythical island.In the dialogue it is claimed that the famed Salon brought the tale to Greece, and that he had learned it from the Egyptians.It is debated whether Plato believed in Atlantis, or whether he invented it to illustrate his point in the dialogue.In either case, it is an interesting read.

Overall grade: A

First Appearance Of Atlantis In Literature
I'm not sure why Plato ever became so famous based on this book.
He states as fact things that are only conjecture really.

It makes basically no sense at all based on what we now know about modern science, the human body, etc..

But then Plato didn't have access to all that we know now.In that sense it can be interesting to see how someone tried to apply simple ideas to explain everything.

And he does try to explain everything in this short book from the creation of the universe to the creation of the human body.

However the information about Atlantis is fascinating.In that part of the book it appears to me that Plato really is stating facts but yet that is the part that many people (including the author of the appendix) say is science fiction.

To say that mythology including the story of Atlantis is science fiction is "highly unphilosophical, nay rediculous"

(Poseidon: A Link Between Semite, Hamite, and Aryan (Paperback)
by Robert Brown ).

Or people like this guy try to explain mythology by relating it to more conventional places, events, etc.. where it doesn't fit at all.That's because they don't understand mythology is talking about metaphysical and supernatural events.

Yes Atlantis was a real place.It was a super race that started I guess about 50,000 years ago and was light years ahead of our current society.Many people today are experiencing past life memories about Atlantis where they see the amazing crystal technology, genetic engineering, time travel, etc..

With all the controversy about evolution versus creationism Plato provides some assistance:

"Birds were produced by a process of transformation, growing feathers instead of hair, from harmless, empty-headed men, who were interested in the heavens but were silly enough to think that visible evidence is all the foundation astronomy needs."

"Land animals came from men who had no use of philosophy... while their skulls were elongated into various shapes as a result of the crushing of their circles.And the reason some have four feet and others many was that the stupider they were the more supports god gave them, to tie them more closely to earth."

"But the most unintelligent and ignorant of all turned into the fourth kind of creature that lives in water... their makers thought them unfit to breathe pure clean air, and made them inhale water, into whose turbid depths they plunged them."

Poseidon: A Link Between Semite, Hamite, and Aryan

The Mystery of the Crystal Skulls: Unlocking the Secrets of the Past, Present, and Future

The Secret Teachings of All Ages (Reader's Edition)

Edgar Cayce's Atlantis and Lemuria: The Lost Civilizations in the Light of Modern Discoveries

Edgar Cayce's Egypt: Psychic Revelations on the Most Fascinating Civilization Ever Known

Initiation

Initiation in the Great Pyramid (Astara's Library of Mystical Classics)
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Product Description
The Phaedrus, written by Plato, is a dialogue between Plato's main protagonist, Socrates, and Phaedrus, an interlocutor in several dialogues. The Phaedrus was presumably composed around 370 BC, around the same time as Plato's Republic and Symposium; with those two texts, it is often considered one of Plato's literary high points. Although ostensibly about the topic of love, the discussion in the dialogue revolves around the art of rhetoric and how it should be practiced, and dwells on subjects as diverse as reincarnation and erotic love. (Quote from wikipedia.org)

About the Author

Plato (427 BC - 347 BC)
Plato (wide, broad-browed) (428/427 BC - 348/347 BC), was a Classical Greek philosopher. Together with his teacher, Socrates, and his student, Aristotle, Plato helped to lay the philosophical foundations of Western culture. Plato was also a mathematician, writer of philosophical dialogues, and founder of the Academy in Athens, the first institution of higher learning in the western world. Plato was originally a student of Socrates, and was much influenced by his thinking as by what he saw as his teacher's unjust death.

Plato's brilliance as a writer and thinker can be witnessed by reading his Socratic dialogues. Some of the dialogues, letters, and other works that are ascribed to him are considered spurious. Interestingly, although there is little question that Plato lectured at the Academy that he founded, the pedagogical function of his dialogues, if any, is not known with certainty. The dialogues have since Plato's time been used to teach a range of subjects, mostly including philosophy, logic, rhetoric, mathematics, and other subjects about which he wrote. (Quote from wikipedia.org)

About the Publisher

Forgotten Books is a publisher of historical writings, such as: Philosophy, Classics, Science, Religion, History, Folklore and Mythology.
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Customer Reviews (8)

Best available
Best available translation of Plato's Phaedrus in English. They are as literal as possible and convey the subtleties of the Greek text as if it were originally written in English.

I also recommend their companion translation of Gorgias.

Review of Hackett Phaedrus
This is an excellent translation of the Phaedrus published with an extensive introduction and plenty of contextual footnotes to make reading more pleasant. It should be noted that this is the same translation present in 'Plato: Complete Works' (though here, the introduction shorter and more straightforward, and the footnotes less plentiful).

Good Item
The Book was awesome and its still almost new....the shipping was really fast i got in before the scheduled time.!!!

Socrates is cocky
In this book written by Plato, Socrates is again proving his brilliance (as Plato always has him doing). Phaedrus brings to Socrates a letter from a man claiming that it is better to have sex with a man who doesn't love you than one who does. Socrates then gives his response as to why it is better to be lovers with someone who loves you. A challenging read at points of Socrates speech because he uses crazy metaphors but a wonderful read.

"To Love - Who Watches Over Beautiful Boys"
This books attempts to answer a question that was apparently very important in ancient Greece:

When an older man wants to seduce a beautiful boy should the older man be in love with the boy or should they just be friends ?

Then it gives this analogy of the feelings of the seducer sprouting like wings from his soul.

All of this was actually quite repugnant for me so I took off a few stars.

If someone were to right a book like this today they would probably be thrown in jail.

Socrates was thrown in jail and executed.I don't know if there's a connection.

It sounds like Socrates was into that man / boy stuff.

I doubt if Plato was into it.He was probably just recording information about the beliefs and customs of the times.

Then again it's hard to really learn much about Plato from these dialogues since they are accounts of conversations between Socrates and someone else (Phaedrus in this case).

I'm planning on reading a few more of these short dialogues before I read "The Laws".

"The Laws" was I think one of Plato's last works so it should tell what Plato finally decided about a lot of issues before he died.

This is the first time I ever read a book where the introduction and editors' notes are longer than the story itself.

However that introductory and additional information was very helpful.

I'll probably order these same authors' version of "Symposium".

Jeff Marzano

The Thing (Collector's Edition)
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Product Description
Plato's Phaedo, written by legendary author Plato, is widely considered to be one of the greatest classic texts of all time. This great classic will surely attract a whole new generation of readers. For many, Plato's Phaedo is required reading for various courses and curriculums. And for others who simply enjoy reading timeless pieces of classic literature, this gem by Plato is highly recommended. Published by Classic Books International and beautifully produced, Plato's Phaedo would make an ideal gift and it should be a part of everyone's personal library. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (8)

An incredibly insightful introduction.
I have no desire to critique Plato or to give a synopsis of his Phaedo.What drew me to this review is actually the translators' introduction.Brann, Kalkavage and Salem do, what I think, is an excellent job at breaking down the imagery and themes of the piece while adding a tremendous amount of background.If this were my first encounter with Plato or Greek thought in general, I would find the introduction to be infinitely valuable.For example, the translators point out that Socrates' execution is being postponed due to a celebration.As it goes, each year the Athenians, in accordance to their vow to Apollo, send an emissary to Delos.Before they return, the city must keep itself pure and not put anyone to death.This is to commemorate Theseus' recovery of fourteen young Athenians from the Minotaur of Crete.Now in the Phaedo, Socrates is Theseus, the fourteen present are the same from the Minotaur's labyrinth and the Minotaur represents death itself.Personally, I found that little bit of information both charming and useful.The introduction is jam-packed full of such goodies that will help the reader gain a deeper understanding of this piece than if he or she were to just read it alone.

Superb Translation of One of the Most Important Texts
To my mind, this translation surpasses all others with which I am familiar.The translation (1) has a flowing literary style that does justice to the rich feel of reading Plato's own prose, (2) is remarkably precise in its reflecting of the original language, with the result that, when one notices something interesting going on in the language of the translation, one will consistently find it is reproducing what is found in the Greek.In both these ways, this is a very trustworthy text--the reader can confidently presume to be experiencing Plato's writing.The dialogue itself--Plato's _Phaedo_--has few parallels for philosophical, literary and cultural depth and importance.It is the conversation Socrates has on the day of his death with a number of philosophical admirers.It is a rich discussion of the nature of knowledge, the nature of virtue, the ultimate nature of reality and especially the nature of death itself.The introduction by the translators is also uncommonly good for putting the reader in a position to read the text well.This is the only translation of the _Phaedo_ that I will assign to my classes.This translation is a fantastic accomplishment.

Translation
Ms. Evan Brann is one of the finest translators of Greek in the country.Using the system laid out by Jacob Kline, Ms. Brann has perfected the ideal of literal translation.She stays with the Greek and allows the reader to decide just what Plato said without getting in the way.The glossaries are particularly useful to those with even a rudimentary knowlege of the language of the Greeks.Do not allow a translator or editor to stand between you and the text: choose Brann.

The true Philosopher is always seeking to free the soul from the body
_If it was up to me to preserve just one of the dialogues of Plato for posterity it would be the Phaedo. That is because this is the metaphysical core of the teachings of Socrates (the main character) as told by Plato. As is emphasized in the text, death is the main topic of concern for the true philosopher- and that is what is covered here. However, there is nothing morbid about it. This is a message of hope, for Socrates establishes the divinity and immortality of the soul. The good man, he who has purified himself through the love of wisdom (Philosophy) goes to a higher, purer realm to be with like-minded souls and the gods themselves. The bad man also goes to his just reward with those of like character.

_If I was to abstract the core truth here it would be that the true philosopher is always trying to free his soul from the body- for only then is the soul free of the distractions and distortions that can corrupt it and keep it from direct perception of the Ideals (Absolute Truth, Good, Beauty, and Justice.)

_You easily see where the Church borrowed so much of its basic theological underpinnings. In fact, reading this work abolishes forever in your mind the idea that the pre-Christian pagans were in anyway necessarily savage or barbaric in their deepest spiritual beliefs. This is spirituality more pure than anything preached by the Church- and it is supported by reasoned argument and not appeal to empty faith and authority.

_The closing of the dialog is probably the finest depiction in Western literature of the death of a great and good man. You truly concur that Socrates was indeed "the wisest and justest and best of all men."

The true Philosopher is always seeking to free the soul from the body
_If it was up to me to preserve just one of the dialogues of Plato for posterity it would be the Phaedo. That is because this is the metaphysical core of the teachings of Socrates (the main character) as told by Plato. As is emphasized in the text, death is the main topic of concern for the true philosopher- and that is what is covered here. However, there is nothing morbid about it. This is a message of hope, for Socrates establishes the divinity and immortality of the soul. The good man, he who has purified himself through the love of wisdom (Philosophy) goes to a higher, purer realm to be with like-minded souls and the gods themselves. The bad man also goes to his just reward with those of like character.

_If I was to abstract the core truth here it would be that the true philosopher is always trying to free his soul from the body- for only then is the soul free of the distractions and distortions that can corrupt it and keep it from direct perception of the Ideals (Absolute Truth, Good, Beauty, and Justice.)

_You easily see where the Church borrowed so much of its basic theological underpinnings. In fact, reading this work abolishes forever in your mind the idea that the pre-Christian pagans were in anyway necessarily savage or barbaric in their deepest spiritual beliefs. This is spirituality more pure than anything preached by the Church- and it is supported by reasoned argument and not appeal to empty faith and authority.

_The closing of the dialog is probably the finest depiction in Western literature of the death of a great and good man. You truly concur that Socrates was indeed the wisest and justest and best of all men. ... Read more

Product Description
This translation of four of Plato's dialogues brings these classic texts alive for modern readers. Allen introduces and comments on the dialogues in an accessible way, inviting the reader to re-examine the issues Plato continually raises in his works. ... Read more

Product Description
This accessible supplement makes Plato's texts come alive for students by showing them how to read, think critically, and write about these key classic works. Engaging interactive devices draw students into an intimate philosophical encounter that they can model in later work in philosophy. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (4)

Two thumbs up
Using this book almost everyday in my class.. great to own if you are practicing your philosophic ideas. (its a work book.)

Arrived just fine...
Took about 5 days, but it arrived in good condition.Very happy with purchase.

Ideal introduction to the study of philosophy
Christopher Biffle's A Guided Tour of Five Works by Plato is an ideal introduction to the study of philosophy as an academic activity. While there are several introductory philosophy books that allow the reader to wander and ponder through the dreamy early stages of philosophical wonder, this book gets down to business. Biffle structures his guided tour as an interactive reader of five of Plato's most important and most accessible dialogues: Euthyphro, Apology and Crito complete; the "Death Scene" from Phaedo, and the "Allegory of the Cave" from Republic.

Through this tour students will have an opportunity to actively engage in philosophy as they move through the text. Biffle prepares the reader for the journey by providing just enough background about Socrates,Plato and the history of Athens to satisfy a rudimentary curiosity. As the reader embarks, he will begin to encounter some of the features which make Biffle's book so valuable. This tour is an adventure in thinking, and the reader is challenged to summarize and extract important developments as the tour progresses. The reader is asked to respond to prompts such as "The main things I want to remember about Socrates and the history of Athens are..." Thus the reader himself becomes a participant in the dialogue.

From this introduction Biffle guides us into the dialogues themselves, beginning with Euthyphro. Each selection is introduced with a series of questions designed to open up the reader's mind to some of the ideas and issues to be explored in the dialogues themselves. During the reading of the dialogue, the reader is asked to underline and annotate the text as he goes; thus the reader becomes actively and critically engaged in the text rather than passively drifting through it. By clarifying and analyzing Plato, the student begins to clarify and analyze his own thinking. This approach to philosophy is also an ideal approach to developing reading, writing and critical thinking skills for students.

Although Biffle's tour can be taken solo (in the capable hands of both Biffle and Plato), it is best taken with a group of fellow travelers who can share the journey. It is a fantastic text for use in a class or as the basis for a philosophy discussion group. There are quizzes and exercises to check understanding, but the book really encourages the reader to develop his own thinking, and ultimately to become a curious and critical questioner of the world--what Socrates or Plato would have called a philosopher.

Best Plato Textbook is a Superb Teaching Tool
The book is an excellent teaching tool for undergraduate and graduate level Philosophy courses.This text would be the only one I would use at the high school level (and Plato should be taught in GATE and AP type English classes, as he was back in the "good old days" when the goal of academic 'arete' had real importance in lesson planning).The book includes the dialogues surrounding the trial and death of Socrates, Euthyphro, Crito, and Apology, the Death Scene of Socrates from the Phaedo, and the "Allegory of the Cave" from the Republic.While the translations are not always the best, they are very good, come from the greatest source (Jowett) and quite sufficient for communicating all the important points in the dialogues.
Best of all are the copious margins which surround the text on every page and serve the wonderful purpose of teaching students to annotate their text with marginalia. The creation of marginalia is an ancient scholarly art, quintessentially described by Edmond Bourdoux Szekeley, one of the last of the old world scholars of that grand continental tradition known as the Sorbonne Method, which he describes in his now out of print masterpiece, "The Art of Study".In that book, Szekeley details the method by which, through nearly a millinium, successive generations of Sorbonne scholars (dating back before Aquinas), parsed and analyzed arguments and extracted the hermaneutic esssence of their texts.
Biffle provides cues and prompts with relevant and incisive questions (he knows Bloom's Taxonomy as well as he knows his Philosophy), which not only makes students accountable to do the reading (you can collect your students' texts to see if their doing it), but provides the student with a time-proven, eminently productive study skill.
Biffle also provides excellent background material, supplementary writing exercises, and material for quizzes, all you really need.
A few points which Biffle addresses "to the teacher" in his introduction are in order: 1) "My philosophy students need a lot of practice in orderly thinking and writing. They need practice in following a logical pattern, giving reasons for assertions, clarifying points with examples, and quoting supporting material from a text. There is plenty of practice here." 2) "The truth is most students will read Plato's dialogues only once in their lives.We need to slow down that precious reading and make it as fruitful as possible. The reading and writing tasks I have incorporated in this book are designed to help students underline, write in margins, reread, paraphrase, outline, and eventually analyze philosophical classics in an orderly way." ... Read more

Product Description

Plato, the great philosopher of Athens, was born in 427 BCE. In early manhood an admirer of Socrates, he later founded the famous school of philosophy in the grove Academus. Much else recorded of his life is uncertain; that he left Athens for a time after Socrates' execution is probable; that later he went to Cyrene, Egypt, and Sicily is possible; that he was wealthy is likely; that he was critical of 'advanced' democracy is obvious. He lived to be 80 years old. Linguistic tests including those of computer science still try to establish the order of his extant philosophical dialogues, written in splendid prose and revealing Socrates' mind fused with Plato's thought.

In Laches, Charmides, and Lysis, Socrates and others discuss separate ethical conceptions. Protagoras, Ion, and Meno discuss whether righteousness can be taught. In Gorgias, Socrates is estranged from his city's thought, and his fate is impending. The Apology (not a dialogue), Crito, Euthyphro, and the unforgettable Phaedo relate the trial and death of Socrates and propound the immortality of the soul. In the famous Symposium and Phaedrus, written when Socrates was still alive, we find the origin and meaning of love. Cratylus discusses the nature of language. The great masterpiece in ten books, the Republic, concerns righteousness (and involves education, equality of the sexes, the structure of society, and abolition of slavery). Of the six so-called dialectical dialogues Euthydemus deals with philosophy; metaphysical Parmenides is about general concepts and absolute being; Theaetetus reasons about the theory of knowledge. Of its sequels, Sophist deals with not-being; Politicus with good and bad statesmanship and governments; Philebus with what is good. The Timaeus seeks the origin of the visible universe out of abstract geometrical elements. The unfinished Critias treats of lost Atlantis. Unfinished also is Plato's last work of the twelve books of Laws (Socrates is absent from it), a critical discussion of principles of law which Plato thought the Greeks might accept.

The Loeb Classical Library edition of Plato is in twelve volumes.

Customer Reviews (1)

Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class. I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below. I found G. M. A. Grubb's translation to be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society. "Reason allows us to live for something." Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals. Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women. The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups. Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom. Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit. Artisans have moderation of appetites. Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy. The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control. The ruler should think logically not emotionally. In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government. The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end. Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage. I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously. Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city. Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes. Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as Artisans This division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state. In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice. With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage. What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage. It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people. This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage. Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN. In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined. Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people. Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous. First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved. Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous. If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant. Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war. Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well. Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate. Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors. Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices. Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage. Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure. Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.
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The third edition of The Trial and Death of Socrates presents G. M. A. Grube's distinguished translations, as revised by John Cooper for Plato, Complete Works. A number of new or expanded footnotes are also included along with a Select Bibliography. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (15)

GARBAGE
This book was listed as "LIKE NEW."It is garbage.....there is writing all over it. The back cover is bent, pages are ripped and it there is so much writing you can barely read it with all the red.

Useful, got the Job done
This was the book necessary for my introduction to political philosophy @ Harvard. My professor said we needed it for the next week and thanks to the next day shipping guarante I received it the next day mid afternoon. This book was only useful to us for Plato's "The Apology" but I'm sure to keep this on my shelf and read the rest od Socrates's trial. Overall it's worth the 6 dollars it's just like buying a big Mac, but you get to enjoy this one longer.

One of the Greatest Books Ever
This magnificent compilation has four Plato writings:"Euthyphro," "Apology," "Crito," and "Phaedo." Though apparently early works and not as complex or philosophically influential as later ones, they are immensely important in portraying Socrates' trial and death. They are our clearest picture of the historical Socrates and would be invaluable for this alone. Indeed, I have read hundreds - perhaps thousands - of books, and this is one of my ten or so favorites, mostly because of how moving the depiction of the great man's last days is. The story of Socrates' Apology and last moments is part of world literature's very fabric, an immortal part of Western cultural heritage. Anyone who wants to learn about Socrates should start here. However, the works have great value even aside from this; a few have indeed questioned their historical veracity. This does not affect their philosophical, literary, and political worth, which is of the highest, making the book doubly essential.

"Euthyphro" is the least important work philosophically and probably not meant as historical, but it is still worthwhile. It examines the important "What is piety?" question and, like many Platonic dialogues, does not have anything like a definite conclusion. Some find this aspect frustrating, and it is certainly beguiling, but those who have experience with it come to love it. Like Socrates, Plato is after all too intelligent to give hard and fast answers; in all likelihood, he knows there are not any. What he does is far more important - lead us to think for ourselves and come to our own conclusions if we can. "Euthyphro" is a good, if relatively minor, example. It also introduces what philosophers call the Euthyphro Problem; here it is "Are good things good because they are loved by the gods, or are they loved by the gods because they are good?," but it has been restated in innumerable forms. This is in some ways an unrepresentative dialogue and thus an unfortunate one to begin the book, because it seems to prove the stereotype that philosophy obsesses over inane, probably unanswerable questions of no practical use. The Euthyphro Problem seems truly asinine as given - or, in our post-postmodern world, simply irrelevant. However, we can begin to see its importance when we replace "good" and "loved by the gods" with whatever seems most pressing. Such is after all the kind of thing Plato wanted; we are not supposed to read in narrow literal terms but use him as a starting point for our path to wisdom. This is an instructive example of how Plato has been immensely influential far beyond his apparent significance.

"Apology" is Plato's least philosophical and most unrepresentative work but arguably his most important and is among many readers' favorites, including mine. The book's title is misleading in that this is prose rather than dialogue; it purports to be Socrates' self-defense at his trial. It is historically priceless if so, as it gives his last public statements and some background about his life and the lead up to the trial. Even if not, it is of immense worth as a passionate, sound defense of individualism and free speech; its timeless evocation of these all-important concepts is forever associated with Socrates and the main reason he has been immortalized. The work also piercingly examines the often vast law/conscience gap and is thus an early higher law document. Finally, it is a sort of mini-dialogue in itself touching on and in several ways tying up classic Socrates/Plato themes like the nature of piety and goodness, responsibility toward the gods and the state, interpersonal relations, and life vs. death issues. It sums up Socrates and perhaps Plato better than any other work.

"Crito" is a possibly partly historical account of the title character visiting Socrates in jail to inform him that he is able to escape via bribe; Socrates famously says that he accepts his sentence and argues down contrary pleas. This gives incredible potential insight into Socrates, in many ways telling us more about his character and thought than a full biography ever could. Again, though, it transcends this philosophically and otherwise and is particularly relevant politically. It also examines the law/conscience gap and gives further background on Socrates but is notable above all as a very early example of the social contract theory of government. This is an astonishing example of how advanced Plato was, as the theory is generally considered to have been founded by Thomas Hobbes nearly a millennium later. Even more amazingly, it is put forth more clearly and persuasively here than perhaps anywhere else, making the dialogue essential for anyone interested in political theory.

"Phaedo" ostensibly details Socrates' last moments, including his last look at his wife and child, his last dialogue, his last words to friends, and his actual death. A large part of Socrates' image comes from this, and its potential historical value is inconceivable, though its historicity can easily be doubted since the work itself strongly suggests that Plato was not there. Even so, it is likely accurate in regard to the things that really matter and certainly a fine account of how it very well could have been. It is extremely moving; shot through with pathos, it is one of the most affecting things I have ever read. One can surely not read it without being overcome by emotion; I can hardly even think of it without misty eyes. Anyone who respects and admires this central Western civilization figure will be profoundly touched; his famous last words seem comic out of context but are very much otherwise here, telling us much about Socrates and moving us yet further. This would be one of the greatest works of all-time if it had no other aspect, but it is also a fine dialogue appropriately dealing mostly with death. Plato examines perennial questions like the soul's immortality and metempsychosis very thoroughly and thought-provokingly, and the conclusion - unsurprisingly, given the circumstances - has uncharacteristic certainty. It may not convince our cynical, empiricist, science-loving, twentieth century-surviving age, but the argument is certainly well-made and in many ways admirable. The dialogue touches on other important subjects also and is generally seen as the culmination of Plato's early, Socrates-centered thought.

It is important to realize that these four works were not originally published together, but the trial and death connection means they are often collected. There are many such editions, but this is the least expensive and probably the most widely available, making it ideal for most; it also has extra value in that many versions lack "Euthyphro."

The ever-important translation issue must also be kept in mind. It goes without saying that anyone who cares about intellectual issues, especially applied ones, must know Plato, as should anyone who wants to be even basically well-read. However, this is far easier said than done for most; he is so different from what now passes for literature, to say nothing of pop culture, that he is virtually inaccessible to general readers. Yet the importance of persevering cannot be overemphasized; the payoff is well worth the effort. As nearly always in such cases, reading him becomes far easier after the initial difficulty; no attentive reader will ever think Plato easy reading, but he is utterly absorbing once we get used to his style. He has a near-poetic beauty that all agree has never even been remotely approached in philosophy, and such mesmerizing prose is rare in any genre. His dialogues are an incredible form at once intellectually and aesthetically pleasing - an inspired combination that has perhaps never been bettered; many have appropriated it, but none have matched it. All this means that picking the right translation is probably more important with Plato than any other writer. For the average reader, the more recent, the better is generally true, though older translations like Jowett's and Rouse's are still very accessible. The important thing is to read Plato in some form, and those who happen on a translation that does not work for them should keep trying until their mind opens in a truly new way - and once done, it will never close again.

The Trial and Death of Socrates (3rd Edition) by Plato, John M. Cooper
This purchase saved me a lot of money compared to the price in the campus bookstore.

Expensive
Of the eight books I bought, it was the most expensive (cost per page) for all that I received. Although it was in great condition, so were some of the others. ... Read more

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Paul Shorey's unsurpassed translation is published herewith his original footnotes (missing in the Bollingen reprint), whichclarify readings and explain nuances. The Loeb edition of The Republicis in two volumes. ... Read more

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Reason allows us to live for something
I read Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class. I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below. I found G. M. A. Grubb's translation to be the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society. "Reason allows us to live for something." Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals. Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women. The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups. Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom. Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit. Artisans have moderation of appetites. Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy. The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control. The ruler should think logically not emotionally. In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government. The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end. Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage. I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously. Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city. Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes. Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as Artisans This division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state. In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice. With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage. What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage. It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people. This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage. Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN. In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined. Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people. Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous. First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved. Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous. If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant. Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war. Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well. Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate. Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors. Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices. Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage. Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure. Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

Excellent edition of The Republic
Shorey's english rendering of the Greek in the Loeb edition is, in my opinion, excellent. More than anything, he captures the passion and fervor of Socrates beautifully, as his english rendering of the text is significantly more poetic than the vast majority of translations of The Republic. While, obviously, there are countless other editions and translations of The Republic, few of these do "justice" to the work qua literature as Shorey does. Shorey's translation, while perhaps a little less accessible to beginning readers than Alan Bloom's or WHD Rouse's, is not difficult to the point of inaccessibility, and its strengths in other regards are too significant to make it necessary to purchase anything other than the Loeb edition of The Republic.

It is my hope that this review is actually helpful to someone that is deciding which edition or translation of The Republic to buy. Far too many Amazon reviews are little more than opining on the ostensible subject matter of a book that the individual either did not read, or did not understand. ... Read more

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Plato's Meno with Introduction, Translated by Benjamin Jowett. ***Special Student Edition with a separate area on each page for notes. ... Read more

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The Laws of Plato, written by legendary author Plato is widely considered to be one of the greatest classic and historical texts of all time. This great classic will surely attract a whole new generation of readers. For many, The Laws of Plato is required reading for various courses and curriculums. And for others who simply enjoy reading timeless pieces of classic literature, this gem by Plato is highly recommended. Published by Classic Books International and beautifully produced, The Laws of Plato would make an ideal gift and it should be a part of everyone's personal library. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (4)

Laying down the law...
When one thinks of Plato and his ideas of politics, one naturally gravitates toward his best-known work, the Republic. In that book, Plato set up the ideal city-state, with classes born and bred to specific functions and roles in society, and a sense of philosophical outlook consistent across the board. However, such a society was unlikely to be brought out, in Plato's time and, as it turned out, in any other.

Plato tried at different times to persuade rulers to become his envisioned philosopher-king; the last attempt was with a tyrant of Syracuse, who in the end imprisoned Plato rather than following his directions. Plato wrote this work, 'The Laws', as the last of his dialogues. Its difference from the Republic is immediately apparent in the absence of Socrates as a character - Plato at the end of his life has finally taken to working in his own right and not through a proxy.

Just looking at the contents will show the breadth of this work - it involves practically every aspect of civil society: legislative bodies (and Plato has some scathing commentaries on some that he has known); education and its proper role and method (including even drinking parties as part of the educational process); ideas of monarchy, democracy, and the balance of power (some American constitutional ideas were generated from a reading (and occasional misreading) of this work); civil administration; arts and sciences; military and sports training; sexual conduct; economics; criminal law, torts, and judicial process; religion and theology; civil law, property and family law; Plato even argues for the need of a 'nocturnal council', one that delves not only into the practical aspects of the law, but also their philosophical bases.

According to translator and editor Trevor Saunders, 'The reader of the Republic who picks up the Laws is likely to have difficulty in believing that the same person wrote both.' Saunders speculates that Plato in his older years changed from optimism to pessimism, from idealism to realism, but that this is not all there is to the assumption, because in actual fact the transition from the Republic to the Laws involves transitioning unattainable ideals to attainable realities.

Plato describes the construction of a utopian society in great detail, down to the number of citizens permitted to live in the city (5040) and the length of time foreigners might reside in the city (20 years). This shows that Plato considers politics to be an exact science (indeed, despite the inclusion of the 'nocturnal council', he did see his system of laws being essentially unalterable through history). Plato is not averse to the use of force and coercion to set up and maintain the utopian society. Finally, Plato sees a self-contained kind of society that is likely to become xenophobic to the extreme, with less tolerance toward its own citizens than toward those foreigners permitted to live and work in the city. Indeed, for the virtuous citizens to be free to pursue their virtue, the majority of the manual work and crafts must be done by a worker class composed of slaves or immigrant workers, or both.

Plato's Laws suffer from much greater criticism in the modern world than the Republic, in part because it is a more 'realistic' work, with a reality that no longer applies. However, many of his insights are worthwhile, and the overall structure of his society reflected in the Laws is worth discussion as much as is that of the Republic. One of the problems with this work vis-a-vis the Republic is its length (the Laws is considerable longer); another problem is that it lacks the dramatic reading possible from the Republic, rather the difference between a political debate and a legal seminar. Still, it is an important work, showing how Plato's thought had shifted in his lifetime.

A Useful Corrective to a Distorted View of Plato
Plato's "Republic" is used most often in college courses to illustrate Plato's thoughts on politics, but it does not seem to contain a serious political program.The characters in the "Republic" are mostly young men not yet entrusted with political responsibility who are, nevertheless, concerned with justice and how a city would have to be composed in order to be fully just.That such a city could never, in fact, come about becomes less important than the questions of justice and soul that the discussion raises.Obviously (and by Plato's intention) the "Republic" does not present a practical political program.Students relying on this dialogue alone to get a sense of Plato's thoughts on the best regime may be led astray, especially if they are guided by a bad teacher (of which there are many in the universities).The best corrective to this is to read Pangle's translation of Plato's "Laws".In this dialogue an Athenian Stranger discusses various proposed laws with a Cretan who is shortly to assist in the founding of the new colony of Magnesia.The laws and regulations proposed by the Stranger are concessions to the way men are, rather than idealistic portraits of how they should be.The rule of philosopher-kings is not proposed, and the fact that all three interlocutors come from cities that at one time or another were at war with one another introduces a note of distrust and seriousness that is missing in the more playful "Republic"; this seriousness befits the discussion's more practical nature.Pangle's translation is literal and trustworthy where other translations take liberties with Plato's terminology, while the notes ameliorate the limitations of the translation form. If you are unsatisfied with this, prepare to learn the Greek since a better translation is not likely to be forthcoming. If Pangle's Interpretive Essay leaves a bad taste in your mout, feel free to read "The Argument and the Action of Plato's Laws" by Leo Strauss.My impression, however, is that Pangle's essay is more appropriate for readers who may find the unfamiliar "Laws" more, well, unfamiliar than, say, the "Republic".No one can deny that the "Laws" is more complex than the "Republic" and builds on many of that dialogue's insights,coming as it does at the end of Plato's career.To my mind, however, it is as indispensable as the "Republic" and teachers do their students a great disservice by not assigning the "Laws" more often.In conclusion, I highly recommend this dialogue and translation--accept no substitutes.

Where's the Philosophy?
This is a very flawed book. The translation suffices; however, the Interpretive essay is horribly flawed. Pangle bases his essay with direct reference to 'The Aplopgy' a profoundly exoteric work that does not shedsufficent insight into Socrates' view of philosophy. Even worse, Panglestates that 'The Laws' is what Socrates would have done if he had the timeand oppurtunity to be a legislater. Garbage. There is no support for thiswild asserion. Moreover, Plato himself took great pains to not includeSocrates in 'The Laws', for his name never appears in the text. Yes, thereare brilliant men who think The Athenian Stranger is Socrates (Leo Straussand Aristotle) but Pangle just takes their word for it, he cannot argue hisown case, a very unphilosophic thing to do, and bulldoses his way into hisessay using Socrates name as a substitute for The Athenian Stranger. Ifound this, personally, quite apalling. There must be a deeper reason whyPlato took such care in drafting his dialogues. Pardon my snotiness here,but I think Pangle is just imatating his Cornell professor AllanBloom whowrote a truly philosophic masterpiece in 1968 with his translation of 'TheRepublc', why Pangle, at such a young age took on such a deeply complicateddialogue is beyond me, Leo Strauss waited until he was in his sixtiesbefore he published anything on 'The Laws'. Think how Book X of 'TheRepublic' denigrates imitation. Pangle's entire Interpretive Essay shouldbe rewritten- it's unphilosophical. He should return to 'The Republic' andmake an effort at understanding how each book relates to one another andespecially how Plato himself thought they related. Such an endevour wouldbe worthy of the name schlorship, philosophy, and Allan Bloom.

Great Bookon the politics
The Laws by Plato is one of the best book on the political science. Here are some reasons why I think the Laws is the best book of the politics. First, This book extensively and thoroughly covers every aspects of the society such as education, laws, politics, justice, and religion. Unlike the Republic, the Laws has some pratical values in it. In other word, every political idea in this book is applicable to the Greek-States at the Hellinic period. ... Read more

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Classic Writing at an Excellent Price
What can I say? Six Dialogues of the master Plato in one very inexpensive edition. This is an excellent bargain. ... Read more

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This interpretive introduction provides unique insight into Plato's Republic. Stressing Plato's desire to stimulate philosophical thinking in his readers, Julia Annas here demonstrates the coherence of his main moral argument on the nature of justice, and expounds related concepts of education, human motivation, knowledge and understanding. In a clear systematic fashion, this book shows that modern moral philosophy still has much to learn from Plato's attempt to move the focus from questions of what acts the just person ought to perform to the more profound questions of what sort of person the just person ought to be. ... Read more

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Better look elsewhere!
This book grew out of Annas' experience of teaching Plato's Republic to students in a course that's all about evaluating Plato's arguments for their philosophical merit. She aims for this goal so single-mindedly as to deprive herself from providing to her audience any further profits a book on Plato's Republic may provide - profits such as, fuel the reader's sheer enjoyment of reading Plato, or learn at a more accurate level what Plato's views were.

For instance, this book makes a case for Plato being a mysogynist (women-hater) and favoring dictatorship of the (almost) worst kind. Unless you happen to favor those views yourself, this won't add much to making Plato an enjoyable read for you. What's worse, however, is that the book doesn't actually spend sufficient time arguing for those interpretations, let alone addressing countervailing ones. And on that level it achieves the very opposite of what it set out to do, namely make people engage critically with a set text.

You see, the idea might have been to make people read Annas so as to engage with Plato critically. The problem however is that people who aren't critically minded to begin with won't start to become so simply by being told - a point Plato's Socrates was fully aware of but this book (apparently) isn't. Rather, what I repeatedly find in student essays on the Republic is that they swallow Annas's claims, enjoy the short lived pleasure of scoring cheap points in the game called "acing your exam essay", without ever engaging critically with either Annas or (for that matter) Plato.

To see what a vast difference an author can make to encourage readers to engage with his book critically, have a look at Burnyeat's "Theaetetus", a fine work on many levels, and an outstanding example of what writing on Plato can be without being mindless praise.

Personally I'm glad there are more rewarding books to recommend to students of Plato's Republic these days, and if you're interested at all, I suggest you have a look at the multi-authored "Cambridge Companion to Plato's Republic" (2007) and "Blackwell Guide to Plato's Republic" (2006).

A wonderful study of the Republic
What is wonderful about this study by Julia Annas is the personal tone of her writing; her profound knowledge of ancient Greek philosophy and Plato is constantly confronted with her own views as a modern philosopher of our times, at times she admires Plato and at others she is shocked by his extremism. The only other study written this clearly is Nicholas Whites' "A Companion to Plato's Repbulic."
The only thing I miss is a discussion of the literary, theatrical aspect of the text, the question being: are all of Socrates' views in the Republic really Plato's own? Is not Socrates a mask, an actor for Plato? Julia Annas automatically ascribes Socrates' views to Plato in her study. But this is of course an option that is possible, although not shared by all scholars.

A Misguided Mish-Mash of Academic Conceit.
This book is profoundly flawed. The author is oblivious to the implications of her admitted license. For instance, she uses the term 'moral' while admitting that it comes from a tradition post-dating Plato('Introduction' p.11) and uses it to smear across distictions Plato himselffound necessary. Professor Annas refuses to deal with the core concepts, ascore concepts specific to Plato's time and place, and substitutes themplayfully with her own modern day conceits. I quote: "I shall use'morality' for the area of practical reasoning carried on by an agent whichis concerned with the best way for a person to live." Why does sheneed to do this? If one was to say 'the best way to live' as Plato himselfdoes, is that not sufficent? Does the reader/student really need aprofessor to explain that Plato really means 'morality'?. Baffling is whyso much time is spent on non-Platonic terminology. To continually butcher'The Republic' with these artificial terms, such as 'moral', 'values','society', and 'state' isto assume 'we' know more than 'they' did. Thisis a historical prejudice ,and it does an injustice to the unsuspectingreader/student. Moreover, Professor Annas seems to be obtuse to thedramatic quality of the dialogue. An educated reader of this book cannothelp but think this when the author stumbles across (454d-e) of 'TheRepublic'- quoting Socrates "the male begets, the female givesbirth." Professor Annas then evaluates the statement, "This is anadmirable argument as far as it goes; for Plato has removed any possibilityof treating women as inferior as a class...but the argument suffers frombeing too generally stated" ( 'Plato's State', ch.7,p. 182 bottom).The author goes on to give her opinion on why it is too general- i.e: herconsidered views on the merits of a gender equality argument- which is fineand worth reading on it's own terms, if it was offered as such, but it isnot offered as such. This is suppost to be a book on 'Plato's Republic',thus the title. Ask yourself- is that true? Is the only difference betweenmen and women that men mount, or begat, and women bear, or give birth? Thatis what Plato and Socrates are asking? If the author of a commentary on'The Republic' does not take that question seriously, and goes on to sum upher interpretation on the dramatic episode as: "Plato isconfused." (p. 184), how can a reader take it seriously?

an excellent book on the Republic..
The Republic covers many subjects and it's not possible for someone to write a comprensive book on the Republic. Most of the book written on theRepublic usually focus on few particular subjects (the most notable one is justice). An Introduction to Plato's Republic is one of the few exception.Julia Annas doesn't interpreted the Republic from one point of view. She presented the Republic as Plato intended.. In the others words, the Republic is not the book about Politic only; it is also the book of metaphysics, educations, morality. Every chapters are very thorough and extensive but simple enough to read.. ... Read more

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Presents a new translation of Plato's celebrated account of a political utopia, which remains one of the most compelling and influential works in the history of philosophy. ... Read more

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Reason allows us to live for something
I read Terence Irwin's translation of Plato's Republic for a graduate philosophy class.I paid close attention to Plato's thesis of courage in his Republic, which I expound below.I found Irwin's translation to be one of the best of several I read.

Plato's project in the Republic is to form the "perfect" society."Reason allows us to live for something."Through reason we set goals and organize our lives around achieving goals.Plato argues that the government's duty to citizens is to provide justice, and educate citizens both men and women.The state's social structure stood for justice and was divided into three groups.Rulers- those trained to use reason and posses wisdom.Guardians/ Soldiers have courage/spirit.Artisans have moderation of appetites.Plato's ideal ruler, the "Philosopher King," should be 50 years old with 15 years of government experience and should have studied science and philosophy.The ruler must show a mastery of Arete = excellence vs. akrasia= weakening of will, or no self-control.The ruler should think logically not emotionally.In the Republic to insure excellent people Plato advocated selective breeding of excellent unmarried people who lived in communes, who did not own property.

Plato describes five types of government in the Republic:

1. Aristocracy- Plato considered this the best form of government; aristocracy embodies wisdom of the philosopher king.
2. Timocracy- military government embodies virtues of honor and courage.
3. Oligarchy- rule by a rich elite, their vice is greed, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.
4. Democracy- mob rule, and chaos, it represents akrasia people are slaves of their desires and have little self-control.
5. Tyranny- this is the worst form of government.The vice is selfishness, one power crazed person in control.

Plato's purpose in the Republic is not to perfect the character of people as an end but only as a means to an end.Plato's aim has a definite effect on his definition of courage.I find this is especially the case when exploring his ideas on how to educate the Guardians of the city to act courageously.Plato's goal is to match a person's character disposition to a job they are naturally inclined to perform in the city.Once he [Plato] has introduced the city in 369 b-d, he immediately advances the thesis, which is to dominate the rest of the Republic, that the needs of its inhabitants can best be met if each person in it performs that single task, and that single task alone, for which he is naturally suited.

With this view of human nature in mind, in Plato's model society, he divides the citizens into three classes.Rulers from whom the "philosopher king," will be selected, Guardians who are soldiers to protect the state, and the rest of the citizens classified as ArtisansThis division of citizens precipitates a discussion by Plato on the four virtues that these citizens will bring to the state.In the history of philosophy this becomes known as the "four cardinal virtues"; wisdom, courage, moderation, and justice.With this introduction of courage as a virtue, Plato takes another crack at defining courage.What is also important to observe is that he introduces a new element, that of education, in his definition of courage that was absent from his early dialogue Laches.

Plato espouses the idea in the Republic that the Guardians need to possess certain natural qualities; such as strength, speed, and courage.It seems odd that Plato classifies courage as a natural quality possessed by certain people.This automatically presupposes that not all people can practice the virtue of courage.Plato's successor Aristotle, will argue against this notion in his EN.In addition, Plato argues that in order for people to be courageous they must also have an aggressive thumos [passion], which makes both people and animals fearless and determined.Plato fears that the Guardians could be susceptible to using their passion of aggressiveness against there own people.Therefore, he counsels that the Guardians who naturally possess aggressiveness have to also naturally possess the opposite characteristic of gentleness as well, so that their aggressiveness will only be used against the enemy and not their own citizenry.

This dialogue is significant in that it helps to flesh out Plato's notion of what ultimately makes a person courageous.First, Plato argues that the goal of education, which he compares to a sheepdog, is to watch over the Guardians; thus, with the proper education he believes the proper balance between exciting their aggressiveness and subduing it in the Guardians can be achieved.Second, Plato believes that if aggressiveness is properly excited by physical training, then the Guardian will be courageous.If overly excited they will be like a wild beast devoid of grace and will become ignorant.Finally, Plato argues in his education section of the Republic, that to counter the possibility of a Guardian developing an over excited passion of aggressiveness, it is necessary to teach the Guardians literature and music during the same time they undergo physical training.

Thus, Plato hopes this balanced approach to educating the Guardians will then lead to courage being a controlled and calm act of endurance in battle, instead of a foolhardy lust for blood letting and an emotional reaction to war.Not only does Plato spend a significant amount of time advocating for the tools necessary to subdue the passions of the Guardians in book three of the Republic, but another important point in Plato's philosophy to consider is that since he believes that a Guardian's aggressiveness is influenced by literature he is very concerned by what type of literature is taught to them as well.Plato is very concerned that the archetypical heroic warrior Achilles, as depicted in Homer's epic poem the Iliad along with those depicted in Greek tragedies performed on stage, are bad examples for the Guardians to emulate.Consequently, Plato advises that heroes of Greek literature should be depicted as thoughtfully courageous and in control of their anger and physically resilient warriors.Thus, Plato seems to be using the term andreia [courage] to cover (at the least) both courage proper, which can only exist in some kind of unity with the other virtues, and raw mettle or aggressiveness, which can exist in conjunction with various vices.Plato in book four of the Republic does move on from his study of thumos as the prime motivating force to act courageously, to actually defining the virtue of courage.Plato defines courage as a person's ability to subdue their aggressiveness by the orders of their reason in regards to what they should be fearful of regardless of their own feelings of pain or pleasure.Plato's expounded definition of the virtue of courage is that a courageous act is an amalgamation of a person's natural passion of aggressiveness and properly educated rational beliefs over what is worthy regarding the possibility of losing their life or limb over.

It will profoundly affect you
I find that Plato's Republic is not something you read but rather something you study.I read the book decades ago and over the years I keep coming back to it, particularly whenever I hear a lecture on Plato from a professor of philosophy and as you learn, you uncover more and more meaning to the work.

Overall, the book is foundational to Western Philosophy and I think it needs to be required reading for everyong shooting for a bachelor's degree.If you've finished college and you haven't had at least an introduction to Plato, you've been cheated and in that case I recommend you go back and get the book and read it.

Overall, the book is about Socrates sitting by the ocean on some Greek Island with some friends discussing how they'd build a perfect society and republic.They wind up throwing concepts around back and forth and as they do you get introduced to rhetoric, republican government, guardians, and all kinds of concepts like that which are pivotal to republics throughout the world.There are several key metaphors that come from Plato's Republic like the parable of the cave and the ship of state which serve to illustrate some challenges that Republics face.

In my experience, Plato's republic is monumental, especially given that it was written 2,500 years ago and since it forms one of the most solid foundations for Western Governments.

Depending on whether you're studying Philosophy or Government, your study of Plato's Republic might lead you in different directions.I found myself going down both the government and philosophy roads.From a government standpoint, I then went to some of the French philosophers like Richlieau, Rousseau, and Tocoqueville, and Italians like Machiavelli, and then to Locke and Hobbs and onto the Federalist Papers etc.From a philosophy standpoint I went down a more winding path of philosophers to Emerson, Thoreau, and then I found Derrida - definitely recommend Derrida (got to hand it to ourfriends the French on that one).My learning is not perfect and I still have a long way to go but I find that Plato sits at the foundation (is it perfect, no, but WOW it gets you thinking)

All in all Plato is must read if you care about the government we live in.This edition is a great one to put on a shelf. It is quite sturdy, I've given a couple of these away, and I recommend it as something to fill a shelf.I do own several editions, this one is overally good and readable.

If you're thinking about going down this path of reading the Greeks, I msut warn you that if you take your endeavor seriously, it will change your life.I also highly recommend a class on Plato or at least some lectures on Plato from a professional to help prime the pump.Once you get started though - it will profoundly affect you.

The Guide for Every Statesman
Plato's Republic is often quoted as one of the finest examples of philosophical thought of the western world. Written through the eyes of Socrates, Plato takes the reader into a world were debates are raged over such topics as justice, war, marriage, and the way a state should be ran. Plato holds accountable all theories presented, and each discussion is abundant with the Socratic way of teaching ... the best way to argue. It's a phenomenal book, a great read, and a great way to help one answer life's little mysteries in your own way. This book instills in its reader a sense of personal responsibility for his/her thoughts and philosophies, and gives him/her a new tool to aid him/her in discovering the true answers. If you're looking for a career in politics, the military, law, history, or just love to learn new ways, then Plato's Republic is the best thing since Coke. Just watch out the syntax and take it slow. ... Read more

Product Description
A new translation in the Focus Philosophical Library series, with notes and introduction material, glossary and apppendix. ... Read more

Customer Reviews (6)

Appendices alone are worth the money
In addition to a serviceable translation of Plato's Timaeus, this edition also contains a series of appendices concerning the musical, astronomical, and geometrical background to the dialogue. Much of the cosmology in the dialogue deals with perplexing numerical ratios and descriptions of geometrical solids constructed from various plane figures. The appendices provide short yet detailed explanations of the mathematical and other problems involved. If it is not already clear that the 9:8, 5:4, and other ratios explain Pythagorean problems in tuning string instruments, or if you just can't quite visualize or construct the various solids built of the different kinds of triangles, then buy this book for the appendices. It's worth it.

Plato's Cosmogony Adorned with the Beauty of Rhetoric
In Plato's Timaeus the reader will encounter the divine philosopher's cosmogony, dealing with the creation of the universe and the formation of the human species.Timaeus of Locri, the Pythagorean, takes the lead role in the dialogue.It may be declared that the Timaeus is a philosophical discourse that ascends to a level of intellectual sublimity and aesthetic beauty that has seldom been attained in the pages of western philosophy; and its impact was such that it inspired a whole line of platonic-minded men throughout antiquity, the Middle Ages and the Renaissance.Even today, the Timaeus has not lost its philosophical appeal.Now the basic elements of Timaeus' dissertation deal with the creation of the universe, the immortal gods, mortal man, animate, and inanimate entities: and out of this immerges Plato's famed Theory of Forms, his conception of the Demiurge and World Soul, along with implications pointing to the doctrines of Anamnesis and the Transmigration of Souls.Overall the Timaeus, like the Republic, is required reading for students of Plato and those interested in the western philosophical tradtion.

Plato's Timaeus by Peter Kalkavage
Plato's Timaeus by Peter Kalkavage includes the Kalkavage translation of the Dialogue and two supporting sections, the introduction and the glossary, that are integral to the richness of the book. The Dialogue portion is beautifully translated and very readable. The introduction provides a fascinating treatise for the person wanting to understand the Timaeus as well as how Platonic dialogues generally might be approached. The glossary is not simply a list of terms and definitions, but offers an explanation of the concepts embedded in the language of the Dialogue. Peter Kalkavage's Timaeus is not just for scholars. It offers insight for all those interested in Greek philosophy, Platonic dialogues and in particular, Plato's view of the creation of the cosmos and man's place within it.

Immensely useful
The Timaeus is doubtless one of the most difficult of Plato's dialogues for modern student to unravel, in part because of the vital role played by mathematics in Timaeus' narrative. Kalkavage's appendices provide clear introductions to these aspects of the argument, which supersede Cornford on some points. The translation is very literal, and if that's your thing, quite impeccable. Kalkavage in his Introduction expresses intellectual debts to Jacob Klein, Richard Kennington, and Stanley Rosen; this is a most interesting pedigree, especially as one assumes that the absence of the obvious "fourth" must be intentional.

I should remark, in reference to the review below, that the Timaeus presupposes some familiarity with Plato's philosophy; those just embarking on this study would be best advised to begin with the Alcibiades or the Meno.

Am I on dope or what??
This is presented in dialogue style with an introduction by the
author.Both were a waste of time, at least for me, so that
if you intended to transmit some sort of knowledge or learning
it certainly was not done by this book.

Just from looking at it, I was sure it would have some piece
of meat that would make my life easier, but alas, I became
bogged down trying to determine what was being said, was it true,
or was someone pulling my leg.If this is the source of the
story of Atlantis, I sure would not be looking for that place
based upon this writing.

I did not like it, mainly because it did not transmit any
type of knowledge or learning for me.Maybe I'm stupid, but then
...well.....maybe. ... Read more

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Customer Reviews (1)

Socrates and Nietzsche meet in a bar . . .
Laurence Lampert has written a remarkable book.It appears to be the first volume of a "Nietzschean" history of philosophy.It is an engaging read as he links dramatically these three dialogues to explain Socrates' political-philosophic project.He brings these three dialogues alive as few have the capability to do in print.

It appears that this book will be controversial by the nature of his interpretation.I personally am not competent to judge because of the level of scholarship needed to do justice to the work.I do note that the comments made about Catherine Zuckert's book are somewhat unfair because she attempts to tackle all the Platonic dialogues based upon their dramatic settings; whereas, Laurence Lampert focuses on the first three.

Since I am not competent to judge the work, let me tell you a story that I think sums it up.

Socrates and Nietzsche walk into a bar.They have never met before.They both go to the counter and order a drink, something intoxicating.They are both sitting side by side.After each has been served and they begin to drink quietly, they each pull out the same copy of Plato's dialogues in the original Greek.Surprised, they begin a far ranging conversation about the dialogues.

One wonders whether Socrates and Nietzsche recognize one another as like through their conversation of the diaes.Or does Socrates see the need to teach Nietzsche as he did Critias and Charmides so many years ago.

Oh, by the way, sitting in the corner of the bar at a separate table is Plato in disguise.His teacher and his student cannot recognize him.He sits silently listening to the conversation and keeps his opinion to himself.

My review is based on how exciting and thought provoking I found the text.

... Read more